C&O / GAP Forum

C and O Canal Invites Feedback on Proposal to Increase and Expand Entrance and Other Fees Park-wide

http://www.nps.gov/choh/parknews/c-and-o-canal-invites-feedback-on-proposal-to-increase-and-expand-entrance-and-other-fees-park-wide.htm

Not unreasonable or surprising considering the state of our nations budget. The only thing I don't get is paying the same for hiker/biker camping as drive-up camping. When I hiked the trail in 2011 not all of the hiker/biker sites had a picnic table or a handle on the water pump. Still a nice and cheap vacation though, all things considered.

I always thought the free hiker/biker sites were an incredible deal if you didn't feel like staying at a hotel. I'm actually quite surprised it's always been free access to the park for this long. I'd be willing to pay for a 3, 5, or 7 day pass however they decide to break it down. Not sure how they'll enforce it as there are tons of access points. It's not like Yellowstone NP where you have just a handful of remote entrances. If this means keeping this wonderful resource running smoothly, I'm all for it. I've read that staff working at the park has been slashed big time over the last 10 years. If this sees just a few more employees hired as well as making sure all of the existing water pumps are working, why not?

After watching the NPS squander their operating budget barricading parking lots with Jersey walls, pallet banding shut the port-a-johns, removing the pump handles and scheduling more enforcement personnel to patrol the towpath than routinely assigned when the park was normally open, during the 2013 government shutdown. I have no sympathy or patients for any of this chicanery… $22 a night indeed to stay at a primitive hiker-biker campsite, just plain lunacy in my book. With all that college education sitting around at park HQ in Hagerstown it is any wonder that they could not conceived a more constructive means to close the budget shortfall instead of saddling it on the backs of the taxpayers. I am planning to attend the 28th public meeting at park HQ and give them a piece of my mind and strongly encourage anyone who values the towpath and what it stands for to show up also. Jim

Many other Parks charge some Fee even for day use. They are just trying to make up for budget shortfalls and with the current Political climate (and new majority) in Washington I expect the funding in Parks to be severely slashed.

I can understand some kind of fees to help with upkeep, but there are more questions than answers...How would it be enforced? A lot of people walk or bike every day from their home, not a specific access point for exercise....Other people walk/ride ~7 times, but scattered throughout the month...a 7 day pass wouldn't help that. Parking fees would require a complex schedule as some park in 1 spot and return to it, some park somewhere to drop off & park somewhere else to pick up, some are there for 20 mins, an hour or two, all day, or multiple days....some use it daily or it's a one shot deal. Some try to visit on a holiday, when they're off & find they have to walk half-way across town to use a bathroom because things are closed & locked up (Labor Day 2014)Enforcement, if it could be done, would be labor intensive...(this would be paid for HOW? People wouldn't & many even couldn't pay the fees that would pay for the salaries)We need many more answers before we can say OK.

I can just see it now. Heightened enforcement personnel and patrols along the towpath where the conversation does not start with “Hello, how are you today and are you enjoying your towpath experience” but rather “YOUR PAPERS PLEASE”! So much for innocent until proven guilty.

While the proposed 20$ primitive camping fee probably won't make me change my overall trip plans, it will make me rethink where I pitch my tent and whether there are enough other amenities on that patch of ground to make it worth the money.

I finally thought I had found something I wanted to do every year. $20 a night? Im done.

The comment period for this ends on Feb 22, 2015. PLEASE GIVE THEM FEEDBACK. Commenting here can help get the word out about the proposal, but often-times committees and boards operate in a vacuum of comment. If you don't submit feedback, they will only hear from those who made the proposal.

It was reveled at the Hancock meeting this evening that the NPS is backing off on their intent to raise entrance fees and impose a $20 per night fee at all of the hiker/biker campsites. Instead, they are going to focus on collecting parking fees at Great Falls Tavern to close the budget shortfall. It was also discussed that the NPS C&O Canal owns some rather expensive and sophisticated “paving” equipment, however, has only enough discretionary funds to resurface only, ONLY two miles this fiscal year and no means to pay qualified personnel to properly and safely operate the paving machine. If that wasn’t enough there apparently is a whole slue of deferred maintenance items (locks, culverts, aqueducts, wears, etc…) and the general mentality by upper management is to let them fail before any genuine effort is forwarded to repair much less maintain anything. In light of these facts, it is apparent that the entire infrastructure of the 184.5 mile canal/towpath is doomed to collapse into disrepair, ruin and decay.

I live in Apex,North Carolina just outside of Raleigh. I am looking for several people preferably local to me who want to ride the GAP and C&O. I am trying to work out logistics of getting to either starting point go to the other end and return back to Apex,NC I am 61 and any age is welcome. I'm allowing about 7 - 10 days for this trip. Would like to do it in late May early June but open to other dates. I plan on doing mostly self contained camping but open to hotel stays. I am very flexible. If you are thinking of doing this ride but don't want to do it by alone then lets talk and make some plans. I am providing my e-mail address since I may not check this post daily. Thanks!! goncampn@hotmail.com

Alan, I sent you a PM. Give me a call when you can. My wife and I can't join you on your spring ride but I can share a lot of info. We have ridden the route several times.
Rick

Hello, I'm trying to do the path at that time. One of my closest friends live in Apex N.C... I've been there 3-4 times or so. Went with a group last year. It's too costly they stay at really nice place's... Please reply.thank you Carl.

The elevation listed is 2416. This can't be correct since the highest point is 2392. On another sites I see a number of 1975 for the town which is below the trail. Could this be transposed and actually be 2146 ft?

2 different web sites state 1,975' and 1,988'.

Thank you for catching that. I don't know where the original number came from, but I have corrected it to 1975.

The town is down hill from the trail so that may explain the elevation numbers

Me and 3 friends(all around 17) were planning to do Georgetown to Pittsburgh this upcoming summer. I was wondering how to plan out this trip such as, do we have to reserve B&B's or can we just walk in and stay or would it be better to camp along the way. If anyone can give some real world advice on the trip such as planning, what to bring, and what things are unexpected it would be much of help! Thanks!

Always better to reserve.

Concur with Lenny, make reservations but ask about reschedule policy. Travel itineraries are like battle plans, when the first shot is fired they are no good. Also be careful about making deposits, especially with Little Orleans Lodge and Candle Light Inn B&B in Williamsport. These establishments are notorious for being very inflexible.

Order a copy of the c/o gap trail book. atatrail.org it lists the towns, campgrounds, b+bs, mileage ect. I did the b+b thing last summer. You carry a lot less but it cost. Next time I will split it between camping and b+bs. A great trip.

Like someone else said, order the trail book.
I hiked both the C+O and GAP and camped all along the way. On the C+O it's no problem at all to camp with the hiker/biker campgrounds about every 5 miles. Only the first day was a long one. There are campsites along the GAP too, just not as many. I did stealth camp one time on the GAP well away from the trail, well out of sight and sound of the trail. There's no need to sleep indoors unless you want to. A small tent, a sleeping bag appropriate for the time of year, and a few odds and ends are all you really need.

This is just my opinion. This past Fall my wife and I were doing a credit card ride (indoor stays only.) The Fall is very busy along the Gap/C&O and if your planning indoor stays I'd reserve them early. Summer seems to be less crowded to me and you might be able to arrive and get a room or only call a day in advance. On our trip real bad weather and a bike issue caused us to abort our trip early. Had we had our overnight gear (tent, sleeping bags, cook gear, etc.) We could have made the best of things and kept riding. In the future we will ALWAYS bring all of our gear and be less inclined to make all of our reservations in advance.

If you'd like to contact me I can give you some additional suggestions. 757 619-5522. Feel free to give me a shout. We've completed 4 thru rides on the Passage and most of the C&O at one time or another.

This franchise of Fox Den Pizza closed its doors just before Christmas for no reason. No word if they will reopen in spring or someone else will take over the establishments. So for 2015 there are now only two places in Hancock to get pizza, Shive’s and Pizza Hut.

Thank you for passing along this info - I have updated the Hancock listings.

Does anyone know how the trail looks right now? Snow? Ice?

I'm planning for my 2015 ride (can't believe it's been 3 years since my last GAP trip) .. looks like the dates are going to be August 10 - 12th . .. I'm shooting for the full Pittsburgh to Cumberland trip this time around...

anything new on the trail that I should be aware of?

Anyone know if they'll be on the trail at the same time?

Stayed here late May 2014 while biking C&O. It's a great place to stop. Clean rooms, comfortable beds, nice hosts, good breakfast... It doesn't look like much from the outside, but the inside is completely renovated. Crawled in here feeling like garbage (too much trail in one day, too little water and food) and left next morning feeling great.

We stayed here last June as well and the accommodations were great. Very clean and comfortable with space to sit and relax, computer to use as well as wifi, and great breakfast. Highly recommended.

When I was 11, and then again at 13, (some 32 years ago) my dad and I did the canal from Cubmerland to DC. My son is 10 and I am considering trying to make the trip from Pittsburgh to DC in 12 days. we would never travelmore than 35 miles in a day and most days under 30 miles. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? We would camp all but one night.

sounds good to me. very doable

Sounds like a great trip that hopefully he'll remember years from now. I still remember our family camping trips to the Smokey Mts. I always try to tie my Passage/C&O rides together with history. Maybe read about the French & Indian War. Braddocks troops were wiped out near Connelsville. Also Fort Fredrick near Hancock, Md. Too many places along the route to mention. Enjoy the trip.

35 miles / day sounds like a good manageable distance for a 10 year old - should be a great trip. My only suggestion is to get out for long training rides several times before then so you can be sure that the daily distance will be a piece of cake. Also at least one camping trip ahead of time to "shake out" your equipment, making sure you have all the camping equipment you need and that it all works as expected. You don't want to be at the first night's camp site, with darkness rapidly falling, puzzling over how to set up the tent (been there done that :-)

Good luck and Have fun!

Hello all,
Does anyone have any experience with using Schwalbe Tires? They are a German company.
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They offer several tires that are puncture proof and they also resist snakebite and sidewall punctures. One tire in particular, the Marathon Plus MTB provides protection against Glass Shards, Tacs, and Flints.
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They are a little pricey, but if they perform as advertised, you have the peace of mind of not worrying about a Flat, so the price may be worth it.
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Please only respond if you had direct experience with Schwalbe Tires.

Hi Randy, it is funny that you posted your question here. It is because of the C&O that I am very familiar with Schwalbe tires. On our first through ride,(we ride DC to Pitt), we were very close to Cumberland when I got a huge cut on my rear tire. Too large to be confident in any type of repair. We made it to the Cumberland Trail Connection bike store. They had a display that had a cross section of a Schwalbe with a thumb tack in it. The thumb tack did not reach the tube. I was sold. I believe it was $54.00. I was more than happy to pay it. Since then I have replaced my front tire with a Schwalbe. I believe it is a Marathon Plus. It too was in the $50.00+ range.

On our second through trip my wife got two flats on her rear tire in one day. Long story short, there was a thorn stuck and broke off in the tire. Had to unload the panniers from the bike and the rear tire was very tight on the rim. Would I have paid $50.00 bucks for a Schwalbe then? Oh yeah.

To my mind, they are worth every penny, for the very reason you mentioned. I truly have not worried about a flat tire at all. We have local idiots who feel it necessary to break glass on our paved trails. You cannot avoid the glass. I always take point and let others know where the glass is.

There is talk about the extra weight of the tires, performance, etc. I will worry about the weight of the tire when I lose my 30 pound spare tire....lol. Performance? I am mostly a recreational trail rider. I am all about comfort these days, not shaving seconds off my ride time.

I have joked about being a paid Schwalbe spokesman. I love them and would highly recommend them. Let me know if you have any other questions.

If I ever get to do a long distance ride Im going with the schwalbees. The ONLY thing I have heard is they are a bit difficult to remove from the rim.

Hello JJB,
Thank you very much for your reply. Your response is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for. I have seen the broken glass on the C&O Canal trail (and other trails) due to vandalism.
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I had 2 flats so far this Summer, so I will be "upgrading" to Schwalbe.
Thanks again for your feedback.

I bought a pair of basic 35mm Marathons just before I went on my trip last October and to date they haven't let anything through after nearly 3100 miles. Not even glass from the city streets has managed to get through.

We ride a Longbikes tandem recumbent. I wouldn't consider any other tire than a Schwalbe Marathon Plus Tour. The last thing I want to do is change a tire/tube on our 11 foot limousine while on tour. As far as I'm concerned they are the best flat proof tire available. I also run Schwalbe tubes. I prefer their Schrader valves with threaded stems and SS sealing valve caps. The only threaded stem Schrader tubes I've seen are from Schwalbe.

Appreciate the feedback regarding Schwalbe Tires. There is a bike shop in my area who can special order them for me. I am using Kenda Kevlar tires, but had 3 flats in the last 2 months due to punctures.
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Time to "upgrade" to Schwalbe. From the feedback it also sounds like they wear better also, which means I'll get more life out of them.

I installed my new Schwalbe Tires MTB, 26x1.75 and they are great. Nice smooth ride.
Thanks to everyone for your feedback! :)

My brother in law runs them and swears by them. I bought a set of gatorskins in may, and have had nothing but good luck. only downside is they dont come in bigger sizes. havent had any flats, and Ive put alot of miles on them.

I've learned that Raleigh will be buying out Schwalbe Tires. Raleigh Bicycles are beginning to put Schwalbe Tires on their Bikes.
This should increase the distribution of Schwalbe Tires and hopefully make them more readily available for consumers.

Two brand new Adirondac shelters have been completed along the trail near the glass archway, just behind Martin's Grocery Store. This brings the total to 5. They are available on a first-come first served basis.

They were very convenient when I did my hike of the GAP a couple of years ago. There was an Italian restaurant where I got dinner, I resupplied food from the grocery store, and got fuel for my alcohol stove from the auto parts store that is/was right there too. The only down side is I wouldn't leave anything unattended in the shelters for any length of time. But yes, a nice place to spend a night.

The Adirondack Shelters are very nice and a welcome addition along the Gap Trail. Water and toilet are close by as well as a grocery store and a nice Italian Restaurant. I haven't stayed at the shelters yet as it was too early in the day to stop but they appear to be clean and well maintained. Last spring or fall a year ago there was a young homeless man frequenting the area. He had a dog and backpacking type gear. His behavior was very odd (jumping around doing Kung Fu moves and talking to himself.) My wife was glad we weren't spending the night. As the other poster stated I would not leave my gear unattended. I'm glad that there are more free overnight camping options springing up along the route. I also noticed several new shelters further west on our ride this past fall. Personally, I enjoy a mix of indoor/outdoor overnight stays. A nice shower every other along the route is just about perfect.

I am thinking about doing this as an alternative to our regular Katy Trail and Ragbrai excursion and I am curious as the what the veterans think is the best time to do this trail during the year? I want to minimize soft trail/muddy trail conditions and extreme temperatures.

Thanks

You will probably get different answers on this but basically any time of the year it rains the C&O will be muddy and can get aggravating but doable. Last year in May I ran into a flooded section that was almost 3 ft onto the trail and we had to go around via roads. Later in the summer may be better if you have to travel far to get here. Attidue is everything. Just have fun with it no matter what the weather.

Early Spring you could encounter Flooding and soggy conditions on the Trail. April and even May are volatile months on the Trail as far as the Weather. In any region of the Country April is typically the Severe Weather period and the C&O Region is no different (Thunderstorms, possible Tornadoes, etc.) Later in the Summer it tends to get drier in this region.

Summers are humid and miserable, but it's really not any worse than RAGBRAI in the summer and you'll be under trees most of the way without the hills. I prefer late fall for the lower temperatures without all the rain you can expect in Spring.

The GAP is pretty hard-packed and easy riding while the C&O is a bit more 'rooty' and will slow you down a bit compared to the Katy Trail.

If you're self-supported and can get to Chicago you can save a bundle on transport taking the train overnight to Pittsburgh and then overnight back from Washington.

Anytime of year can be good if you get 7 days of dry weather. Anytime of year can be bad if you get 3 or more days of rain.

If I had to make a forecast it would be the first 3 weeks of September.

August and September will generally be the driest months. I've ridden the C&O in damp conditions. No problems.

Next summer, my scout troop is considering a 3-day ride on the trail from Williamsport to Ohiopyle (150 miles). Is this a reasonable distance> My thoughts are 50 miles in 6 - 7 hours of riding a day. Thanks!

50 miles/day sounds aggressive to me - I'd think about 30/day might be more reasonable for kids, especially if they have not been routinely training by biking a few times a week for at least a few months. On long rides, you cross a line where it stops being fun and becomes a grind; most kids would probably cross that line well before 50 miles. Also, consider having other parents/leaders meeting you at trailheads along the way, as "sag wagons" for the kids who run out of steam. Regardless of what you decide, I hope you and the boys have fun.

Hi Shawn. Ray has some good words of wisdom. What are the ages of the kids doing the ride? What is their bike riding experience levels? What type of bikes? How many people in total are doing the ride? Are you setting up and breaking down camp?

All of these things will come into play. I am assuming that you will ride as a group, therefore you will only ride as fast as your slowest rider. And one thing that I always think of is this; are you doing this to have fun? Do you want to have time to sight-see? Take all of these questions into consideration when you plan this ride.

As Ray said, I hope it all works out for you and your troop. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Depending on age, bikes and support fifty miles a day may or may not be too much.

I'm more intersted in your choice of of start and stop points. How did you come by them? I'd think heading east from Ohiopyle would be a bit more dramatic since you start with Pinkerton leading to the Salisbury Viaduct, the Continental Divide, then Big Savage Tunnel followed by the dramatic drop into Cumberland.

Do all a favor and teach trail manners to the scouts before the ride: consistently enforce them during the ride.

Anon. made a good point. Trail etiquette is lacking. You can tell experienced riders from what I call "day trippers".

I would consider doing 2 things. Either shorten the daily mileage, or do a lot of riding with them between now and then. My bet is that none of them know what it is to ride 50 miles for 1 day, let alone consecutive days. And I assume they'll be carrying supplies too. Do a lot of pre-trip rides to assure that the trip is a success and they come home with a lot of good memories.