C&O / GAP Forum

What are the trail conditions between Cumberland and Old Town. It has been several years since I rode that section of the trail and it was in VERY POOR condition . Muddy, overgrown, don't adequately describe the conditions --

As of last fall there had been no improvements to that section. Thus, in my opinion, you’ll be at the mercy of the weather. The section between Paw Paw and 15-Mile Creek isn’t much better when wet.

Hello - we are heading out to ride the GAP and C&O starting May 11th, self supported. We have reservations at B&B's along the way, arriving in Georgetown on the 17th. If anyone has any alerts, tips, etc. we would be most appreciative. We have a guidebook. We are looking forward to all there is to see!.
Suzanne
Chicago IL

See my writeup below, from April 23.
PawPaw is closed...bring some hiking shoes.
MM 89-88 is closed. Be prepared for an extra detour. It's well marked, just an annoyance.
All H-B pumps were on, except Little Pond.
Random trees down that you may have to climb over or around.
Except for the rain making a mushy mess, you should have fun.

Suzanne:

It looks like your choice of departure dates is fortuitous. Had you left the middle of this week you'd be riding thru nearly two days of continuous rain with sloppy, slick and cold (i.e. miserable) trail conditions. However, the 10-day forecast during your trip looks warm and dry although there may still may be some residual soft sections of the C&O that have not been restored.

I'm sure you are aware of the two notable detours at the Paw Paw Tunnel and McMahon's Mill on the C&O. If not, you should familiarize yourself with them and plan accordingly. You can find information about those detours on the National Park Service's C&O website.

If you need any assistance in or getting out of Pittsburgh to start your way down the trail, just drop me a note at rivnuts@yahoo.com.

Suzanne,
we are taking the same route starting the same day as your party...Maybe we'll cross paths!

I am planning on running from Cumberland to Georgetown starting June 3. Re the detour at Paw Paw: can that part of the trail be used on foot? I ran the Katy Trail in Missouri a year and half ago and there was two “closures”. Well impossible for those packing on bikes but no problem on foot.
Thanks

My recent experience from a few weeks ago was that the PawPaw tunnel is closed to access.
I was diverted from the west, up a steep, rocky, rooty single track path.
From the East, while not rocky or rutted, was long, steep, circuitous and slippery from mud.
There was NO ENTERING the tunnel.
It appeared that they had most of the timbers removed and floating in the canal.

I was there end of April going from Cumberland to DC and you are able to ride walk your bike thru, but the path is totally blocked at the eastern end by a steel fence.
So there's no option but to go over.
I found the bypass trail pretty easy not as expected. Admittedly I was packing light with only 25lbs of gear. I walked up the west side and had an easy ride down the twisty fire road the other side. Took a total of 25mins. It would be difficult if you have a trailer for sure.

The McMohans detour may seem like a bother. But it was a lovely distraction for about 5 or 6 miles along smooth winding country roads with beautiful scenery. It is very well marked. A few hills. But nothing extreme. Enjoy.

My daughter and I were just turned around in Weverton while doing a local ride. The fire and rescue folks indicated a couple construction barges with excavators on them were loose on the river heading towards the bridge in Harpers Ferry. They didn't expect them to clear the bridge. They turned us around. Who knows if this will cause any significant damage but, if you're planning to ride through soon, be sure to check the status.

Oh, I should also mention that the little bridge at the culvert between jefferson and brunswick is currently under water. MD464 is an alternate route but is not at all bike friendly.

I wondered if this weeks rain storm would cause havoc at Catoctin Creek (Brunswick). When that little wooden crossing went in, it was a temporary fix for when their original bridge collapsed.

Hopefully the Park Service comes up with a stronger and more permanent bridge that can survive flooding and creek rises like what we just had.

Hopefully they’ve secured the construction barges and there was no damage to the bridge. It would be pretty impactful if it was closed to trains and pedestrians.

Thank you very much for that update on local conditions in that area that may impact through travelers.

Building on WKR From Brunswick’s report of flooding of the temporary bridge across Catoctin Creek south of Brunswick, I saw another news report of flood-reported closures along the C&O following last week’s heavy rains at:

https://wjla.com/news/local/flood-warnings-potomac-river-closing-billy-goat-trail-boat-ramps-picnic-areas-whites-ferry-edwards-ferry-rileys-lock-montgomery-county-fire-rescue

While the weather looks good this week, travelers would do well to solicit trail conditions from oncoming cyclists for current conditions.

Everything looks good in Harpers Ferry. I ran up there today. A little more detail on what happened:
https://wtop.com/local/2022/05/construction-barge-breaks-loose-floats-down-potomac-river-near-harpers-ferry/

I may head south from brunswick tomorrow to check to see if the bridge is still under water.

The Brunswick Bridge was still under several feet or water last night. (5/10/22). Not sure how deep. The Bridge itself was not visible.

We will typically cycle 50 to 70 miles on pavement in a day. Is 3 days possible on the C&O?

Yes, although they can be some long days if the trail is muddy wet or if spurious detours occur.

A good itinerary for three days that I've done many times is:

--DC to Harpers Ferry
--Harpers Ferry to Hancock
--Hancock to Cumberland

You'll average about 60 mi. per day. The last day with be the most rustic and remote.

Not sure if you're camping or hoteling, but there are free campsites close to each town listed once you leave DC and of course hotel/B&B accomodations within each town.

John

60 on gravel is about like 80-85 on pavement.

Riding the distance of the GAP and/or C&O is an accomplishment in and of itself. The experience is enhanced by the sights and sounds along the way not the least of which is meeting new people. However, the sights along the way are better identified and appreciated knowing the history of the trails. Thus, spending some time before the trip learning about that history will enhance the experience.

There are numerous ways to discover that history. The most recent one I’ve found is the new edition of the book The Great Allegheny Passage Companion written by Bill Metzger. It describes the history of the GAP including numerous maps and photos. Perusing if not reading this book is well worth the time to better appreciate the trip rather than simply riding furiously to get from Point A to Point B each day.

Just my two cents worth. YMMV

Does anyone know what mile marker Sorrel Rudge is on?
And is MM 140 @ Bill’s place?

Sorrrel Ridge is at a mile marker 154.1 and Bill’s Place at 15 Mile Creek is at 140.3. Sorrel Ridge is the last campsite south of the Paw Paw Tunnel and the detour up and over it. I’ve stayed there several nights.

Sorrrel Ridge is at a mile marker 154.1 and Bill’s Place at 15 Mile Creek is at 140.3. Sorrel Ridge is the last campsite north/downriver of the Paw Paw Tunnel and the detour up and over it. I’ve stayed there several nights.

Sorrrel Ridge is at a mile marker 154.1 and Bill’s Place at 15 Mile Creek is at 140.3. Sorrel Ridge is the last campsite south of the Paw Paw Tunnel and the detour up and over it. I’ve stayed there several nights.

Sorrrel Ridge is at a mile marker 154.1 and Bill’s Place at 15 Mile Creek is at 140.3. Sorrel Ridge is the closest campsite north/downriver of the Paw Paw Tunnel and the detour up and over it. I’ve stayed there several nights.

Just back from a GAP-C&O tent blast.
I left PGH Wed morn and stopped in Confluence for the night at the Army Corps park or something. Since it’s a National park thing, being old has advantages.. was only $7.. for a tent.
Aaahhh.. sleep.
Woke up Thursday morn to cold and rain. It’s Part of the adventure!
Up I go.. rain all day. Snow on the trail long between Rockwood and Myersdale… on the trail.. not just the area.
Blasted through to Cumberland and beyond!.. stopping in Cumberland long enough for a quick meal at the BBQ place there.. then onward just to Evitts Creek to set up camp for the night.
Minor issues on GAP.. no closures or detours.. that I recall.
Friday morning.. nice, but cool weather.
Oh, Big Savage tunnel is open.. lots of wild natural beauty on that trail but slogging through the mushy, snow gravel.. I was happy to be able do 7-8 mph for quite a few miles.
Some trees down but nothing major.
C &O was a different story.
PawPaw tunnel is closed and requires a hard 1.5 mile climb up and over! Be prepared with shoes.
Up a rocky, rutted single-track.. exceeding 10%!
Then Down a muddy, wet, slippery mess.. but part of the adventure.
I stopped in Cumberland Valley HB site.
The Hiker-Biker sites are pretty nice.
All handles are on.. except Little Pool.
This morning, Saturday, somewhere near mile 94, there is a trail closure and detour.. up and around to MM 88. It added about 10 to the trip. Don’t do it at night!
A few other minor ‘detours’ but nothing terrible… a few trees down.
4 long days and one heck of a ride!
If you have specific questions, ask fast before I forget.

Thanks for that summary as I prepare to do the trip in a few days albeit in the other direction. Aside from the snow, the rest of the trip sounds like what I encountered last Fall including the Paw Paw and McMahon’s Landng detours.

The snow is not all that unusual in April especially at those upper elevations of Rockwood and Meyersdale.

Did you make your reservation at the campground in Confluence online or were you able to simply pay on arrival? Was the shower house open there?

Reservation was made with assistance from the camp hostess, there.
Yes, all facilities were working.
It’s a nice spot to layover.
Yeah.. the snow. C’est la vie ou c’est la guerre?
Part of the adventure!
I rode this trip on a Trek 520 with Schwalbe marathon plus.
And aside from filth, no issues.
Oh, the trail east of Swains Lock into DC.. soooo hard on my eyes, and tail.
Those rocks! Ugghh!

But, again, the biggest HURDLE is PawPaw tunnel, but maybe if you approach in a non-workday, you can walk through, but it looked like they are replacing the Timbers inside.
Careful!

A little more for those that haven’t done these trails.
I saw: deer, snakes, scary large snapping turtles, myriad other turtles, a gazillion birds, owls and falling to sleep with the sound of frogs singing is what camping is about!

How about the trains at night not just the frogs. :-)

I’m surprised about the rocks east of Swain’s Lock. They have never seemed to be an issue in the past

The ‘rocks’ are roundish, embedded into the trail. Great for walking but hard on a tired, sore biking body on a steel, unsuspended frame. It felt like baby cobblestones.
??
And I don’t mind the trains, actually. It makes me think of older days for some reason.
And who doesnt like a train anyway?
The engineers are friendly and when pedaling, will wave or even toot a hello.

Four days!? You, sir, are a monster.

…and through the snow!

Oh, thank you. That’s kind.
In fact, it was a training/challenge to see what I can do because on May 22, I leave for a solo XC from McLean, VA to SF to raise money for Alzheimer’s.
So, I was testing myself as well as my rig.
In the meantime, if someone is near DC and needs help, I can be reached at tbrduc@gmail.com.
I have tools and skills.

Tom:

Since you are from Vienna which the WOD runs through, did you get off of the C&O to transfer to the WOD and, if so, where, since the Whites Ferry is not operating?

No sir, I did not exit the C and O.
I went in to Georgetown then up Martha Curtis trail (rte 66) to W and OD.
But I DID consider coming across Point of Rocks..
While I have used Whites Ferry in the last, as you stated, it’s not an option now.
PoR, 15 into Leesburg is the only other choice and 15 is really narrow to share with cars and trucks.

Tom:

Since you are from Vienna which the WOD runs through, did you get off of the C&O to transfer to the WOD and, if so, where, since the Whites Ferry is not operating?

Tom - What a great trip report. Thanks for sharing it with this forum.

You must be stoked to get going on your XC trip, DC to SF. Sounds like a little C&O, TransAmerica and….Western Express? Intriguing route! We’d love to hear about your adventure if you don’t mind sharing.

John

@Rivnuts: I think I answered your question about White’s Ferry.
@John: yea.. I’m stoked and nervous while I gather up my gear. Soon, I’ll post. Link to the Alz.org site that will allow updates and donations if folks want. I decided to let someone else do some thinking for me, so I’m following AdvCycle TAT and W Express.. yes. Look, I do like the C&O nd GAP, but.. I want smooth asphalt, as much as possible.
And their routes are proven and tested.
Thanks for the encouragement.
I’m not the oldest here, but I’m no spring chicken either, having qualified for the Federal Parks Senior pass.

Tom:

I'm envious of your impending TAT ride albeit I don't think I'd be confident enough to do it solo. I look forward to the link to Alz.org and your experience. I rode the Natchez Trace with a retired Air Force officer from the DC area that was prepping to do that same ride. At the conclusion of this TAT he sent a summary of his trip. He said it was all he had hoped it would be especially meeting all the kind and generous people along the route. I trust you will have a similar and safe experience.

Curiously, how many days do you plan for the trip to take?

This may show up several times.. not sure what’s going on.. I’m doing something wrong on this otherwise awesome site.Anyway, congrats on doing the Natchez Trace!
I’m allowing for as much as 70 days but am targeting 60.
I know there are a few hills between Virginia and San Francisco.
The url might be hanging up my responses, but if you go to Alz dot Org slash Ride and look for Spokes Series, you will see my activity.
Toms Cross Country

The Trip Planner tool now has a new "Timeline" feature. You can provide your starting time and travel speed, to get a listing of the expected times of arrival at each town along your route, as well as travel times between towns.

Your timeline appears in a new table underneath the business listings. You can check it out by clicking the link above, or "Trip Planner" in the menu near the top of this web page.

Happy trails!

Ray:

Thanks for adding this new trip planning tool. Having worked with it for a little while, it appears to be quite useful in the breadth and depth of the information you can select to see in one's planning process. It must have taken a fair bit of effort to develop and test this new tool. Of course you can use it for the other trails you support as well.

Now, if you could only plug in the days and times that it will rain or snow along the way, that would be perfect. :-)

Oh yes. Very nice enhancements!

Today the GAP website reports the following:

"Intermittent Closures in Cedar Creek Park (GAP Mile 110) Partially Obstructed: Intermittent closures in Cedar Creek Park; expect brief delays during daylight hours."

Would anyone know the exact location that the Renner Sky Ferry came across the Yough. Both on the Sutersville side and the Smithdale side.

I do not know the answer to your question. I'm sure you have Googled the Renner Ferry Company and seen the one photograph that pops up although it does not reveal the location where the ferry crossed the river.

There are some other photos of that ferry on the Historic Pittsburgh website that might provide some clues as to its location. These photos were taken from the Frank B. Fairbanks Jr. rail transportation collection.

https://historicpittsburgh.org/islandora/search/catch_all_fields_mt%3A%28Renner%20Ferry%29

Inasmuch as Smithdale is located in Elizabeth Township you might be able to find your answer at the following:

The Elizabeth Township Historical Society
5811 Smithfield Street
Boston, PA 15135

412-754-2030
https://www.familytreetracer.com/ETHSpage.htm

Next time I ride the GAP to West Newton through Smithdale and Sutersville I'll keep my eyes open for any local residents of those communities and ask your question.

I rode out to Smithdale and Sutersville today. No one on either side of the river had heard of the Renner Ferry. I found no signs or markings on either side locating the ferry. The only thing I saw that could be related to that ferry were two old concrete foundation piers on the east side of the trail about 1/4 mile south of 1st Street (aka Mars Hill Rd). They are about 10 feet apart with a bench now resting between. These piers could have been to support the cable car receiving platform shown in the old photos. Whether these were, in fact, for that cable ferry Is uncertain.

Also, from the old photos, there are some buildings visible in the background on the Sutersville side. I need to go back there and look for these buildings or remnants thereof and look for any similar piers on the banks of the river.

I rode back to Sutersville yesterday to see if I could identify/locate the houses on the Sutersville side of the river shown in the historical photos of the cable ferry. There is a red building that has been reroofed with new siding that looks like the one in old photo. Some of the background looks the same as well. All that said, I believe the ferry came up at the base of the road down to the river between that red house and the present playground there in Sutersville.

I’d still like to find an old-timer (like me) to confirm or correct this observation.

My previous observations must be in error insofar as I saw today a sign for the Renner Cable Ferry at the west end of Smithdale where Smithdale Road previously crossed the trail before being closed.