C&O / GAP Forum

See the article below for an update on the negotiations in an attempt to reopen Whites Ferry:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/whites-ferry/2021/02/03/94c05daa-6177-11eb-ac8f-4ae05557196e_story.html

Thanks for posting Rivnuts. It doesn’t look like any progress has been made sadly according to this article. For anyone traversing the C&O, this means no Leesburg, VA restaurants or lodging. This also means there will be zero chance at connecting with the Washington & Old Dominion Trail until this is resolved.

John

Well -it is not zero chance. Take W&OD to Purcelville.
Then take surface streets to Brunswick,MD.
You don't have to take the Berlin turnpike the entire length to Brunswick.
Using Google maps, I took a a relaxed tour through farmland roads mostly.
Granted going from Brunswick to Purcelville means going up a gnarly hill for a few miles coming out of Brunswick, but its doable.
I also hope that the Whites ferry issue gets resolved soon. I always loved the ferry ride across the Potomac.

John W: Between the White’s Ferry fiasco and the Paw Paw Tunnel bypass, the trip down the C&O won’t be as enjoyable. At least, I think, they are doing some more resurfacing south of Edward’s Ferry.

Rivnuts

Willy - Thanks for a alternate route to get to the W&OD! Let’s hope this gets resolved. It also sounds like some local drivers are not happy that the ferry has stopped either.

Rivnuts - Yeah it sounds like that Paw Paw Tunnel bypass is going to be tricky. I may just pass up a potential Pittsburgh to DC trip this summer and look at other trails. Have they given a timeline on when it will be back to normal? So happy to hear that more repaving is being done!

John W: Between the White’s Ferry fiasco and the Paw Paw Tunnel bypass, the trip down the C&O won’t be as enjoyable. At least, I think, they are doing some more resurfacing south of Edward’s Ferry.

Rivnuts

More news on White’s Ferry. Like I’ve been saying, I hope the municipalities, counties and state DOT’s on both sides of the river are drawing up plans for a new bridge somewhere nearby. The re-opening of this ferry just doesn’t look like it’s going to happen.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/whites-ferry-closed/2021/02/10/0f8081b2-6652-11eb-bf81-c618c88ed605_story.html

Disappointing indeed. I admit that I don’t have any real skin in the game but it seems both sides are pretty well dug in in their positions. The current situation seems to be lose-lose positions both for the parties involved and the public. While a new bridge may be the best alternate solution for the locals in that area, it removes one of the notable features of the Towpath adventure.

That said, I would think a new bridge would require more disturbance of the properties on both sides of the of the river and result in still more traffic and requiring a large public fund expenditure.

I’ve resigned myself to the fact that the ferry crossing at Whites Ferry will likely be gone forever. I’m glad I was able to use it a handful of times on my travels and look back upon it fondly. I know there are detours much father away (which I might try one day).

Oh well...the C&O is beautiful on its own and we’ll just have to accept and make due with what’s available on the Maryland side. If they ever reach an agreement and it opens back up, I’ll consider it a bonus.

John

The Whites Ferry Operation has been sold with hopes to settle the quarrel with Rockland Farms and reopen the ferry. See this report at :

https://wtop.com/business-finance/2021/02/whites-ferry-purchased-by-loudoun-county-businessman-and-landowner/

I agree on the idea of using roads to connect between the tow path and the W&OD if that's your goal. There are some great "gravel" bicycle routes in Loudoun County between Brunswick and Purcellville. People come to the area specifically to ride there. On rides from home to Purcellville I've had times where I had no cars at all pass me between Lovettsville and rt 7. There is more traffic once you get close to Purcellville but inside the city limits the speed limits are very low and seem to be aggressively enforced.

Whoa! Excellent news! Let’s hope for an agreement and things get back to normal.

Thanks for sharing Rivnuts.

Wkr:

I’ve ridden the WOD from DC to Purcell and then the roads on to Harper’s Ferry. I’m intrigued by your revelation regarding gravel routes from Brunswick to Purcellville. Be a rather lazy sort, are there existing public Strava routes of those gravel paths rather than my Googling and trying to find such routes on my own in unfamiliar territory?

Thanks,
Rivnuts

I don't use strava but I just put something into ridewithgps (which I'm pretty new to) that will take you from the C&O to the W&OD: https://ridewithgps.com/routes/35184094

There are, of course, other options but this one basically takes you straight there and is dirt/gravel most of the time. If you want to avoid all the climbing towards the beginning you can go all the way to Lovettsville on 287 and then turn right onto sout church st and then meander over onto the rest of the route above.

I just remembered there are some recent videos on youtube from some riding in loudoun county:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjRGW5fnMa4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xR1Q4vh4zo

wkr:

Thanks for the Ridewithgps map and the YouTube links. Now to see how to incorporate some of those in my next trip. Heck, I have nothing else to do as a winter storm approaches the ‘Burgh.

Rivnutst the Lazy One

Good luck! I know about your weather up there. My Mother's family was from the Uniontown area, just down the road from you. :)

wkr:

I looked at that ridewithgps route from Brunswick to Purcellville. I love it. I would never have found that route. (Not sure if I'll be able to follow it without a wrong turn or two. :-)) But I'm certainly going to give it a try. The max grade is only around 4% which is ok. I love the farm scenery along the way. I'm definitely going to try this on a future trip. I'd actually like to overnight at one of the farms along the way if they'll permit it.

Thanks a lot for that route.

One thing about riding in that part of loudoun county is that you've got a ridge to the west that you can't go over (with a paved road that runs parallel to it, mountain rd), 287 on the east, then 9 followed by 7 in the south. So, you can hardly get lost. ;) You might end up on someone's driveway rather than a dirt/gravel road but that's about the worst of it.

White's Ferry not over with....a new buyer is finalizing details to purchase the ferry to resume service. So no long detours from Point of Rocks, etc

https://www.fox5dc.com/news/negotiations-under-way-to-keep-whites-ferry-open

Does anyone know how the trail surface is between Hancock and Cumberland? Is it crushed limestone , dirt, etc? I'm wondering which bike(tire size) to use for an overnighter this spring. Thank you for your time!

The Towpath surface itself between, Cumberland and Hancock is basically compacted native earth with some sporadic gravel. There are sections with roots and rocks as well. Couple that with having to take the bypass up and over the PawPaw Tunnel this year and its my least favorite portion of the trip from Pittsburgh to DC. If it is dry it’s rideable even on a road bike with narrow, say 28 or 32 mm, tires. However, if it’s wet, it is a much more challenging and less pleasant ride through puddles and mud. Under those conditions, wider knobby tires would be safer and more effective.

You do have the option however of leaving the Towpath to Hancock just beyond 15 Mile Creek by transferring to the paved Western Maryland Rail Trail (WMRT) that parallels the Towpath into and beyond Hancock.

Hi everyone...I just read this on Reddit. It helps explain my observation Last week about the removal of handles from a bunch of pumps...Get your filters!!...

Important info for folks who ride the C & O
After a trip for the last few days on the towpath and finding the wells shut off again (although they were on last week), I bumped into a ranger who gave me some info that folks might want to know.

Apparently a few stretches of the wells came back with E. Coli so many need to be shut down. While the wells are technically supposed to be ground water at 100 feet, the Potomac is inevitably leeching in and contaminating the wells often. Understandable.

But the important info he gave me: Spring of 2021 the entire C and O well system is going to become non-potable water. So the pumps will be on, but any water coming out will have to be treated. The long and short is that they used to treat with iodine, but due to that not being good for everyone, and a chlorine system is too expensive for the park service to absorb, the water next year will need to be treated before using. He said it will be on the NPS website when the time comes, and signs and info will be at each pump.

Unfortunate, but good to know.

Geez, I hope this doesn’t come to fruition. I love the drinking water availability along the C&O and will be sad to see it go away. Yes, we’ll still be able to rinse off or dunk our heads in the water but being able to drink it is what made it great. I just wonder if they let them go for a long period of time, could they ever revive them?

Oh well, we’ll just have to carry our own water or bring a filtration system.

Does anyone know the status of NPS not treating water along GAP trail?

The NPS cutting something out that affects .5% at high doses (source Canada Allergy Institute) of the population is not tolerable. Seems like another way they trim expenses.

I’m guessing we’ll know sometime in March or April when everyone’s first planning their trips and the NPS makes a decision to treat them or not. I know everyone here is hoping they continue it.

Someone on here made a good argument....can’t recall the exact details....but they said it’s actually cheaper for the Park Service to treat the wells with iodine as the these water sources are life savers for people who misjudge their water situation and might get caught between towns. Cheaper than getting billed for ambulance bills retrieving people in dire straits.

That said, if E. Coli becomes an issue, hopefully they’ll just mark the bad ones as non-potable and keep the iodine treated ones active. I can’t imagine all of them are being leeched by the Potomac. Hope not anyways!

John

2/6/21: can anyone tell me the surface conditions between point of rocks and shepherdstown?

Looks like a few more inches today. In general, snow and ice stay longer on the path because of a number of factors, esp the low sun angle and the light surface color. That is a wooded stretch and my guess is you’re looking at another week before it is snow ice free.

Long day to ride from Cumberland to Hancock, with having to "portage" around tunnel. Any info on condition of trail? Will be riding in 2nd 1/2 of May 2021. I realize conditions can change, but is the bypass trail new, or forest roads, etc??

I think “old goat path” is the best description.

The the Department of the Interior (DOI) and its National Park Service (NPS) have announced their new policy to implement one of the new presidential executive orders. According to reports:

“NPS will now require all visitors and employees to don masks inside buildings and facilities and on NPS-managed lands "when physical distancing cannot be maintained," according to the DOI. For example, a mask will be required when a trail is too narrow or is busy, on overlooks or in historic homes.”

If/how that will be implemented and enforced along the C&O Towpath is uncertain at this time.

This was my last stop for the night before Pittsburgh Excellent stopping spot for camping. They have a fully enclosed lobby/pavilion, kitchenette, bathroom and heated showers. The camping space is massive with grilling areas and seats to just view the river. The pavilion has a TV with cable to watch sports and other channels. Great setup that fully supports bikers on the GAP. Loved it here and would highly recommend!

Hi - planning a Spring trip and saw this. Very encouraging and makes me want to stay here.

Any other thoughts about the Campground? This was the only hit that came up when I searched the Forum about it.

This campsite is as described albeit the “pavilion” is not fully “enclosed” but is fully “covered”. I myself would not describe the camping space as “massive” particularly compared to others along the GAP Trail such as Husky Haven. That said, it is a nice camping site about 35 miles from downtown Pittsburgh. There are a number of places to eat within walking distance along with a good bike shop there also.

If all the amenities noted are important to you, I would recommend you call ahead of time to insure they all will be available in the early spring touring season

You can find more info about that campground at:

www.gaptrailcampground.com

Thank you! Thoughts about the Outflow Campground in Comfluence?

It’s a nice, state-operated campground with a large RV clientele. It has a large shower house. It sits at the base of the Youghiogheny River dam (hence the name) and is a short ride into the small town of Confluence. There are a handful of eateries in/near town and a capable bike shop. All in all it’s a nice place to overnight albeit a little pricey for a tent site compared to others along the trail

Note that you have to make a prior reservation online via the state recreation website as opposed to simply walking in.

Wondering what is approx distance from Jordan Junction to the nearest food/grocery/restaurant?

About 2 miles.

3 of us are planning to bike from Pittsburg to DC in May and ride Amtrak back. If the Capitol Limited still has the 2-bike limit, does anyone know if boxing the 3rd bike as baggage is an option? Renting a car sounds tempting but with 3 bicycles not sure.

I’ve not heard of a 3 bike limit.....I think there’s up to 6 or 8 slots. Can anyone else confirm?
Maybe they mean one person can’t book 3 at the same time in one swoop? Not sure.

Boxing of bikes is still an option though.

Given the past changes to the Capital Limited schedules and bike transport accommodations, you would be well advised to contact them directly regarding your questions. Even then, as history this past fall demonstrated, you should continue to check back with them periodically, and certainly before departing, to confirm that information.

There seems to have been a lot of confusion with travelers who had made reservations for service this past fall.

Also, on an unrelated subject, please note the work on and the detour required around the Paw Paw Tunnel if you are not already aware of it.

Our experience indicates that a one-way rental car will likely be cheaper than three train tickets.

My wife and I planned to take Amtrak, but then they cancelled bike service on us at the last minute. We got a car for just a few dollars more, and made some nice stops along the way.

My wife and I had similiar experience on west coast this past Thanksgiving. In our case Coast Starlight was showing all the bike spaces taken. I checked several different random dates with same results. I suspect they just didn't want to deal with putting bikes in the baggage car which is what they do (no box needed). I would have loved to used Amtrack but instead we ended up renting a pickup to return from Monterey CA to Palo Alto CA. Was actually cost competitive. For 3 people, rent a PU - plenty of room for you and the bikes.

Thanks for all the input. I talked to an Amtrak agent who could not find any info, except that every reservation date had a limit of 2. She did confirm we could box the 3rd as baggage. We will keep checking back but may rent a car, (not sure what a PU is?). Thanks also for the heads up about the Paw Paw tunnel.

Thanks for all the input. I talked to an Amtrak agent who could not find any info, except that every reservation date had a limit of 2. She did confirm we could box the 3rd as baggage. We will keep checking back but may rent a car, (not sure what a PU is?). Thanks also for the heads up about the Paw Paw tunnel.

When I read Karl’s post, I interpreted “PU” to stand for “pick up” as in pickup truck. Perhaps Karl can confirm.

You should think about renting a car for a one way drop off. Enterprise charges a flat drop off fee. It’s an 8 hour train trip from DC to Pitt and maybe a 3 hour car ride. Im going through the same calculations myself and it’s just much more appealing to sick my bike in a rental car and show up a few hours later.

Not sure exactly what Amtrak is doing/ not doing. I wanted to make 6 person/ bike reservations fir a certain date. The train from Cumberland only runs every other day and there were only to bike slots. Whether they'd already been sold or their limiting slots I have no way of knowing. Apart from the pandemic causing problems Amtrak doesn't really have the best "track" record regarding customer service. Roll only bike service is money maker and for the most part bikers load their own bikes. The service at Union Station DC was excellent but the service at Cumberland was lousy. There were 4-5 of us waiting to board. We were told to stand at a certain spot with our bikes. When the train stopped we weren't at the proper car. The baggage guy started barking at us and continued to cause confusion while we all tried to follow his instructions. I finally made a comment and he kinda made it clear he didn't care for us, our bikes, nor the extra money we generated. They need to make the cars more user friendly, have space for more bikes, and lastly shiw some gratitude to the public.

We always do a one-way minivan rental from Enterprise for our bike trips (twice to Cumberland, once to Pittsburgh, and once back from Cleveland after biking the OTET). It's usually just two of us and our bikes, but one time we had a third person and bike. I think we've paid in the $140 to $180 range for the rental. For two people, I think the one-way rental costs a bit more than Amtrak, but the convenience and flexibility of being able to travel on our schedule is definitely worth it to us.

I certainly don't understand how Amtrak manages their business or the economics of it. Further, I don't know what their issues are in transporting bikes.

I must say that the roll on service, particularly in Washington and Pittsburgh, is convenient and easy...plus you get to board early, at least in Washington. All of my experiences at those stations have been positive.

Even before the pandemic and the reduction in scheduled trips, finding and getting a bike reservation to go along with a passenger reservation was difficult especially when returning from Washington. Bike reservations were often unavailable either because of high demand or limited availability. (Not sure which.) Further, it is difficult to find the next available bike reservation as you have to just keep entering successive departure dates in the on-line system until an available reservation appears. I've resorted to calling a real-life reservationist to find when bike reservations would next be available beyond my preferred date and even they seemed to have difficulty within their system.

The schedule to and from Pittsburgh is not ideal as the train arrives/departs Pittsburgh between midnight and 1:00am as an intermediate point in its Chicago/Washington trip.

All that said, as I am usually a solo rider the cost is less than renting a vehicle. Even though it takes twice as long, I don't mind the train since I don't have to drive and can rest, read or sleep on the train.

A better dialog between Amtrak and the riding community would be useful in making for both better service and relations...and hopefully more business for Amtrak.

I so badly want to get with and support Amtrak but they really to make it hard to love with all of the bike reservation issues. When “Roll On Roll Off” works, it’s an excellent, low cost service that I really enjoy. But lately it’s been nothing but confusion for customers.

What makes it even more frustrating is the fact that there’s no way those bike reservations are “sold out”. I mean they might only allow 6 purchased bike reservations but have you ever seen the cars your bikes go in? They could easily fit in 15-20 just in that little part of the car alone. We just laid ours down on the floor last time....no slots, no hangers, nothing. Don’t see why they can’t increase the amount they accept.

On my last attempt at the GAP/C&O I actually managed to secure a bike reservation from Pittsburgh to DC only for them to cancel it on me two weeks out. So I ended up renting a van and riding to National Airport in DC. Like Rivnuts said, I too like to rest and not drive but I’m beginning to lose faith with this set up and have resigned myself to knowing I’ll likely just have to rent a van to make this bike tour happen.

Amtrak should check out Toronto’s GO Train set up for ideas on how this should work. I once took the Toronto to Niagara Falls train with roll on roll off service. Quick, speedy, cheap, friendly service with tons of slots and space for bikes. I really don’t know why this is so hard for Amtrak.